So I am going to detail out here why I think Zak is dead dead wrong on this issue. But before I do, let me say that he is completely and utterly right on division of power between GM and players and the history of poor module design. In fact, I aspire to knock Caverns of Thracia off it's throne with the setting/module that I am working on called Dheinland and I share all of Zak's critiques of contemporary design and have my own solutions for those problems (but that is a topic for another day). So it is definitely not a personal slight on Zak here, we actually have clashed on this exact same issue before on my other blog.
As far as I can tell, Zak is ultimately making the following argument about art and marketing.
The artwork that is on a product has no impact on the decision of women to buy it, because women are going to buy it whether they like the product or not.
This argument is dependent upon several assumptions, all of which are faulty, and that is why Zak is wrong.
1. The argument assumes that the customer actually knows what they want.
This is completely untrue and flies in the face of everything we know about marketing. Marketing as a discipline exists precisely because the customer does NOT know what they want. Marketing is about encouraging people to make decisions that profit your firm, whether it is in their own best interests or not. Case in point, Malcolm Gladwell has a great lecture about how the most-preferred spagetti sauce was not being chosen by people for a long long time because of the things believed by spagetti sauce producers was dead dead wrong and this caused them to market spagetti sauce in a particular way (the most relevant part is between the 8 and 12 minute marks). Marketing is about influence. It is in many ways about trickery and deception. McDonalds is successful because of it's marketing, not the "quality" of its food.
2. The argument assumes that the customer does not make decisions based on packaging, but on content.
I think perhaps the greatest way to illustrate this folly to Zak is to discuss political beliefs. I am assuming based on his online persona that Zak possesses quite liberal political beliefs. I have those beliefs myself. I am sure we have minor points of contention but will generally agree on most issues. In fact, the majority of people have liberal political beliefs in our society on most "social" issues; drug laws, pornography, abortion, gay marriage, etc. Surveys show 60% or higher support for things like marijuana legalization, allowing gays to marry, etc. Yet, the whole pantheon of liberalism is under crushing attack in this country from a minority position. Why?
Marketing. Republicans have convinced people to vote against their own interests using race-baiting, homophobia, religion, and nationalism. The actual facts of the situation have no relevance at all in contemporary US politics. It is ALL marketing. If you vote against this bill, you hate the troops. If you don't want to bomb these people, you hate America. And unfortunately, liberals suck at marketing. And so they lose. Just think about it Zak. Why do so many people who share your views vote for Republicans? I don't want to get into a big discussion about politics, I just want to highlight that these principles are not limited to business marketing. People are not rational beings out there making top-notch choices.
3. The argument assumes that women generally do not like RPGs as a product.
I think assumptions like this are ludicrous. Can anyone really make the argument that getting together in a small social group, creating imaginary characters, and interacting with an imaginary world using those characters is not something that could appeal to women. Really? Really? Come on.
No, the problem is that women THINK they don't like RPGs because of what they see on the package. Just like good little Christian mothers THOUGHT that D&D was Satanic because of artwork like that which Zak put in his post from early TSR stuff. It was an issue of perception, not fact, that lumped D&D in with Satanism. And it was only through decades of work to reframe D&D and (most importantly I think) the rise of other RPG systems, especially on computer, that dispelled the whole Satanism thing about D&D.
Women see the images on the art and they say "this is a boy's game".
4. The argument assumes that the images in the games have no impact on the people playing them
As Loquacious points out, a lot of the BEHAVIOR of gamers is the problem. If these games are full of art that presents female characters as objects and not equals, it reinforces these terrible beliefs they have about women, and thus driving women away from playing the games.
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Closing Thoughts
In my previous discussions with Zak and Raggi on these issues, the exploitation and demeaning presentation of women has been central to the discussion. I have to really credit Trollsmyth on helping me see this next thought.
It isnt just the sexist presentation, it is the entire presentation. It is the fact that D&D books are not beautiful in the way that Vampire the Masquerade is. Or as beautiful as a large portion of White Wolf products, especially core books. Dark Ages: Mage is the most gorgeous RPG book I have ever held in my hands. It is stunningly well-designed. Pictures online (which I just checked) don't even do it justice. There is nothing comparable in my D&D line-up.
D&D books scream out the following message: This is a juvenille boys game about running around killing stuff
And Zak may very well reply, that is what D&D is. My reply would be, that is not what all RPGs are. Despite the proclamations, D&D is not all of roleplaying. Believing that is a road to marginalization and the death of the hobby.
I will leave you with this final claim, which I challenge anyone to contend:
The misunderstanding of what an RPG really is is the single greatest threat to RPGs. RPGs should appeal to a much larger audience than currently enjoys them. Designing products in a way that clarifies what an RPG is and why someone would want to play one will be the defining feature of successful RPGs going into the next decade. And this is a graphic design and marketing task, not an issue of content. And appealing to women is crucial.
I must also include an enticing picture to get people to click on the blogroll links to read this post, because of believe that people DO care about graphics. This should draw some people looking for a bit of a fight. Hehehehe.
By the way, future RPG players might be watching this movie right now. Let that blow your little mind for a bit, eh?
Greg - The first rule of statistics is that they lie. I don't know where your 60% liberal number comes from, but from my experience, the majority just doesn't care. Well, that and there are folks that give liberal answers to surveys because they want to be "politically correct", but express different views within their own social circles.
ReplyDeleteNow, if I went from my work environment, I'd tell you the swing is a full 80% in the other direction, but that is not the real world. My profession tends to draw those with strong personalities and conservative views. The real world is full of lemmings, eager to follow the strongest voice. (Tea Party Anyone?)
You can throw that into the RPG industry, with WotC having the strongest voice, and gamers just following the latest incarnation of D&D mindlessly, no matter the presentation.
That being said, if there is one gender that is probably going to more influenced, positively or negatively, based upon presentation, it's going to be the ladies. They may not be as well represented in the hobby as they should be, but turning off possible future gamers is just foolish.
My thoughts here...
ReplyDeletehttp://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2010/12/women-in-rpgs-or-what-rpg-verse-needs.html
"D&D books scream out the following message: This is a juvenille boys game about running around killing stuff"
ReplyDeleteI've been working on a post in my mind that discusses the relationship I have with D&D and why I struggle to make sense of and enjoy it.
Your quote is really something as it helps to articulate what I've been feeling.
While I still like Zak's assertion a game's author should remain true to his vision, I agree with you in that the hobby as a whole has too narrow of an appeal. I keep wondering when the Twilight role-playing game will come out. I'd play that goddamn thing, if only to finally be able to play the World of Darkness with engaging women, who are interested in sessions about politics, intrigue, romance and role-playing.
@greg: MMO's like WOW, Warhammer, Everquest, LOTR Online, etc.. have TONS of women/girls who do nothing but rip ass all day. 'Running around killing stuff' isn't the problem there.(Or here.) Juvenile Boys would be, however. Most guys these days seem to be a bit more welcoming in the past, where there was nary a girl gamer to be found, much less an all female group.(I know of a few here in SC.) Plenty of da dudettes love this stuff. However, there are quite a few who request more options as to bodytype in character generators character attire, dimensions, NPCs, etc..., but they play. And some art is now a little less salacious than in the past, and probably will continue to change. The Big Boob Babes will have to welcome their Appropriately Armored(Or at least a little varied physically) Cousins, and fans of the former will only care if their style disappears.(which it won't; Hell, there's always Deviant Art, right?)
ReplyDelete@tenkar: 'Some people' pretend to be more 'liberal' than they actually are on surveys? Who? From my experience, they 'pretend' to not offend older/more socially conservative people.(usually parents, from what I can tell.)
The point about people moving on to new editions due to newer=better is absolutely spot on. People tend to believe in Progress in mass produced material. Why else would they make a new one if the old one was still good or maybe they discovered something cool and want to share, right?
@Joethlawyer Ha! Funny!
@christian: Do you have females in your group? If so, ask why they play. From my experience, women play Vampire to be powerful and feared in a real world setting. Urban Fantasy Power Trip. Nothing wrong with that, imo.
Not everybody likes politics, intrigue, romance(all of which fall under role-playing, I think); sometimes ya gotta turn into a bat and rip out some throats, ya know. In this, the male and female gamers seem to agree, at least around my gaming circles and Internet experience.
Twilight=WOD: That is, wait, whut?
Intriguing post.
The artwork that is on a product has no impact on the decision of women to buy it, because women are going to buy it whether they like the product or not.
ReplyDeleteGreg, you have an amazing ability to be completely out to lunch on context.
The artwork that is on a product has no impact on the decision of women to buy it, because women are going to buy [THE PRODUCT] whether they like [THE ARTWORK ON] the product or not.
1. The argument assumes that the customer actually knows what they want.*
Yes. The RPG customer does know what they want.
They 'want' a game they can play amongst their friends, and in doing so, can participate in things they can and can't imagine doing otherwise.
This desire does not occur in a vacuum.
Flying spaceships, sword and spell swinging, shiny vampires, et cetera, all exist in pop culture and their existence predated that of RPGs. (Except, maybe, the shiny vampires…)
2. The argument assumes that the customer does not make decisions based on packaging, but on content.**
Female participants are not put off by RPG box art, because they somehow lack the cognitive development to distinguish between reality and fantasy, they are put off by it because participation in the RPG itself has no relevance to them if there is no encouragement to do so from their peer group.
Remember what the introductory age demographic for these type of games is.
Remember how males and females socialize at these ages.
Unless you marry or socialize with gamers, your chances of playing an RPG are far more probable of diminishing as you age. (However, due to my age, I have yet to have lived in a senior’s retirement complex, so there may still remain an unexplored potential demographic for RPG introduction…)
3. The argument assumes that women generally do not like RPGs as a product.
No, that was your assumption, and yes, it is ludicrous a one.
Remember what the introductory age demographic for these type of games is.
Remember how males and females socialize at these ages.
Recognize that there are culturally significant biases that affect behaviour and perception. (Like ignoring the fact that, over the past 25 years, belief in gods or devils has diminished in the western world, where these kinds of RPGs have their popularity. Not, in the present, where a large proportion of the people who are playing the RPGs are under the age of 30 and have grown up in a culture where playing them is, more or less, acceptable…)
4. The argument assumes that the images in the games have no impact on the people playing them.
And your argument assumes people, who are playing a RPG for their first time, have an imagination that is limited to the representations of a few dozen illustrations of their character class in a rulebook.
While Loquacious may have pointed out the behaviour of gamers is the problem, you are, again, ignoring that this does not occur in a vacuum. They likely learned that behaviour elsewhere and brought it with them to the table.
Changing the art on a box isn’t going to change that fact.
(Cont'd)
The misunderstanding of what an RPG really is, is the single greatest threat to RPGs. RPGs should appeal to a much larger audience than currently enjoys them. Designing products in a way that clarifies what an RPG is and why someone would want to play one will be the defining feature of successful RPGs going into the next decade. And this is a graphic design and marketing task, not an issue of content. And appealing to women is crucial. ***
ReplyDeleteThis is an issue of content.
The most evocative representations of all possible adventures aren’t going to matter to a prospective RPG playing adult or child if the content has no appeal. Try to explain the popularity of a game like the original Traveller using your argument. It doesn’t hold. People will gravitate towards RPGs because they like a certain style of play or the setting. The artwork is always going to be secondary if the game is any good.
And that game is going to be good because of the game designers and players will make it so, not because some artist’s representation of something may or may not be what you’ve chosen to object to.
_____
* “McDonalds is successful because of it's marketing, not the "quality" of its food.”
McDonalds success also comes from giving those who ‘dine’ at one location, food of the same “quality” which they then expect to get when they go to another location, which is called ‘consistency’, and is generally preferred to ‘inconsistency’. That works the same for representing RPGs.
But you offered Malcolm Gladwell, the All-American poster-boy of pseudo-scientific cherry-picking, to support your argument? Fail.
** “Yet, the whole pantheon of liberalism is under crushing attack in this country from a minority position. Why?”
Because, in your country, it is run be a two-party system based on opinions, not on facts, echoed by apologists for either side of the argument without much actual evidence for, or against, their prejudices. It is called “spin”.
*** “Women see the images on the art and they say "this is a boy's game".”
Dude, that is just so pathetically lame, I’m not going to attempt to reason with you as to ‘the how and why’ of it…
Biopunk,
ReplyDelete1. RPG players know what they want in a general sense. The job of marketing is to get them to make a choice.
2. Seems like you are saying that because currently RPGs are marketed in a way to create a certain demographic distribution, therefore only that distribution will ever occur. White Wolf proves yup wrong.
3. Same as above, but Zak is definitely the one saying women don't naturally enjoy RPGs at the same rate as men in the general population, which is odd considering his own group, but whatever.
4. Have you not been reading the ravings of all these OSR bloggers about how inspired they were by the original book art?
5. Are you really arguing that the success of Pokemon, Power Rangers, and other media targeted at children over the years have been because of their stellar content?
Velaran,
ReplyDelete40 percent of mmo gamers are women. True. However, I wasn't making the point that all women dislike violence. A lot of women dislike meaningless repetitive combat and that's why I said "running around killing stuff." because it is different from Vampire style violence which is very much not repetitive combat. There are women who like repetitive combat. My wife is one. She had a Diablo obsession for a long time. But art that reinforces it will turn off the women that dislike that kind of game.
I have to disagree with the idea that content doesn't matter. Good marketing should explain what the content does. RPG marketing has always been poor on this point, especially when you consider how many people have purchased D&D thinking it was something like a board game. ;p
ReplyDeleteHowever, all the great content in the world won't do you any good if nobody investigates the game enough to find out out about it. How many RPGs are on sale at RPGNow? How many can you list by name?
I am not saying content doesn't matter. I am saying content is not "the big problem" facing RPGs right now.
ReplyDelete@greg:
ReplyDeleteMMO's: 40% and growing, and the combat is non-stop.(Wearisome, actually, imo. I f=hadda stop, wasn't worth it.)
On RPG combat: The combat doesn't have to be 'meaningless' or 'repetitive'. Grinding isn't everybody's deal, but most people like 'kicking ass'. Also, there's generally roleplaying factors which create a combat situation, even in non dungeon situations, so battle could happen anytime. Hence the rules on stabbing shit, or blowing it up, whatever. Many people play with more or less fighting: it varies, even in D&D. Anyone joinin a gaming group, which more women are nowadays, will find that out. The lethality of the game probably will be communicated upfront, me thinks. As well as how much social interaction in game occurs on the regular, ya know. The dagger doesn't always have to be drawn.
As for a lot of women disliking hack n slash, many men do, too. Especially the excessive amount required for levelling in ERPGs.
Vampire: Quite a few women/girls apparently enjoyed being a bad-ass in the modern era, rather than a pseudo-RENEVAL one, who knew?
On Art/'Marketing':
Cover and interior art should show the wide range of ingame possibilities: combat, exploration, NPC interaction, whatever.(Alphabetized, not prioritized.)
The best marketing tool is word of mouth, but the Internet helps; correct misperceptions if any. Ya know, like on blogs...
I, Agree.
ReplyDeleteNot for any of the reasons you listed really or because the other side of the argument is presented clumsily but...
I can open any RPG book I have, flip to a random page with art and show it to any of my sisters. They will look at it and comment. Same procedure with a brother and their asking me what I'm showing them and flipping through themselves.
I could disagree with you Greg but I would only be doing it as an academic exercise as your side is right, not from a 'your argument is better' sort of way but from a 'look i just did it and its true' sort of way.
Zak S thinks marketing doesn't matter? That's funny.
ReplyDeleteI love this ongoing idea that chicks just can't dig role-playing. Stupid, wrong and ignorant in so many ways. But ooooh so popular in the (entirely male) OSR. I wonder why? It has nothing to do, I'm sure, with the fact that the originators of this game were entirely uninterested in women as participants, and interested only in women in-game as objects to be rescued or wenched (remember the infamous table of prostitutes?) Of course the people who are attempting to reinvent or mythologize this game are going to be the ones who admire this sort of old-fashioned objectification. And it's reflected in the art.
But ooooh so popular in the (entirely male) OSR.
ReplyDeleteIt take issue with this statement, sir. If you just count bloggers there's at least me and Taichara, and if you count non-blogging participants, I've played old school D&D with a bunch of women and there are at least a handful of bloggers with women in their regular groups.
I do seem to remember having one or two or twelve or fourteen women in my group.
ReplyDeleteAnd jeez, it is weird what people get up to when you're not around.